Back to All Episodes
Theme: Trickledown Ape-a-nomics
How does historic significance affect value?





[00:00:00] Today on all about affordable NFTs, our theme trickle-down economics, essentially. How does historic value actually get impacted? And how does that significance plan to Andrew? It was going, what do you see in the news?

[00:00:15] Yeah, I think this is a good topic. We have seen a lot of, a lot of movement in different projects ever since that ape token was dropped.

[00:00:22] And it's been interesting to see where it has fallen. So we'll get into that a bit more during the show here. But let's see to start off. We've got another shot or another headline with open. See all we've always got something going on with open seat. And this one is in case you haven't noticed yet they have rolled out credit card payments directly on open sea.

[00:00:44] So you no longer have to have already purchased your crypto somewhere else. You can actually purchase crypto, right. Or purchase the NFT via. A credit card similar to have nifty gateway and some other platforms do it to open. See has this. Now it's been out for a little bit. You may have already noticed this if you've been on the platform.

[00:01:04] I don't know. I haven't taken a look yet at how if that's actually if you can see this on chain, I assume that there, that this must be visible on chain, but it's done in different ways. So it would be interesting to look at how much it's being adopted by users.

[00:01:18] Yeah, I'm curious. I mean the moon pay application doesn't actually serve as a wallet.

[00:01:24] You still need your own wallet connected. So there's no custodial element, but what this also does, it's not just a small payment feature, but think about what a credit card is. It's buying on credit. It's not the same as saying, Hey, I have to actually have these assets in the form of ether west in my.

[00:01:44] Wallet it's. I am going to borrow money from a financial institution to make a transaction here that I have to pay back in 30 days or pay a, an APY on. It's interesting.

[00:01:59] Very interesting. Yes. We've seen a lot of discussion around this, on other platforms other. Robin hood comes to mind. So it'll be interesting to see what happens here.

[00:02:10] Yeah. I mean, it makes me a little terrified. I may just never do it because I gotta be honest. I'm one of the ways I stopped my fricking FOMO and clicky clicky of just running around and buying stuff nonstop is actually a throttling. The amount of these that is in my wallet at any given point and, and just, just taking it away from the hot wallet and moving it to staking or moving into other places so that I think.

[00:02:33] I feel like, oh my gosh, here's an opportunity. But only for now, now, now, and having my credit card attached really removes friction in a way that I don't think helps the the inner demons.

[00:02:43] Yeah. That's, that's a dangerous one. I am likewise going to stick away from a connecting that I do have ways to spend my ego as it is.

[00:02:53] And don't need to add to that.

[00:02:55] All right. We have how the FBI made its first NFT rug pull bust just in time to save other would be victims. So reminder rug pools, meaning the founders create a thing. And then they just run away with the money after making many, many promises. And in this case, it's a couple of 2020 year olds that they found are not facing.

[00:03:19] Criminal charges in Manhattan, federal court for scanning investors under the NFC project. Frosty's w it looks like 1.1 million from NFT buyers, and then they just abandoned the.

[00:03:31] Yeah, actually a relatively small rug full we've certainly seen much bigger ones. But you know, they left a lot of evidence around and made it relatively easy for the FBI to catch them.

[00:03:43] And it seems like they definitely want to make an example here and hopefully it is a warning to others that are doing the same, not to get into this. I'm sure we will see some other busts similar to this. In general, It's tough to, to cover up all those digital tracks. And I think most of these, most people weren't necessarily thinking that they were going to need to do all of the cover up when they got into it.

[00:04:10] So they, they likely have some leaks out there and we'll see similar from other rugged polars in the future.

[00:04:17] I here's, I got to say it like I smile when I see this type of regulation kinda come in because if you. Predators like this continue to proliferate and profit from the NFT market and people that are still figuring things out.

[00:04:31] It hurts the overall ecosystem. Like the truth is you do need oversight. You do need some form of punishment, not just like, oh, too bad. You should have known, like should have known what that like taking a bet on two unknown founders that created a thing and they were. Young when they did it, didn't have a past record.

[00:04:49] A little thing called you know, the board eight gap club came out of a similar start. So you're betting on limited information and promises made by folks. There is punishments for false advertising for falsely representing a product. In addition, And this is just sort of making it a touch, more tangible.

[00:05:06] And for the other folks out there that people that are planning on saying like, oh my gosh, what an easy way to rip people off. I feel like it's a little bit like the early days, early, early days. Facebook follow me on this where I was, I was like one of the first colleges in there. You were one of the first colleges in there when we were at our age and Facebook rolled in and we didn't realize taking stupid pictures on spring big, but actually be associated with a professional identity down the road, all tracked, watched, and saved and recorded.

[00:05:35] That's what's happening on the blockchain. Now, if you are being a jerk at scale, like in thinking you can just roll into your next project, there's a and they're on the blockchain and it's very clear that there's a long memory here in the same way that like making those mistakes are, are hard to cover up.

[00:05:52] I'll be honest. Maybe we should go on Facebook now, take down some old.

[00:05:54] Yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot more people looking at these things, a lot more people looking for ways to, to find these people. So it's not even just the FBI, but there's people out there looking at these and, and voting people to next projects that people may be connected to.

[00:06:12] So definitely a good to see that Action being taken against people like this, because I think making the industry safer will attract more people to it in the long

[00:06:21] run. Yeah. I mean, the truth is when you piss off 2000 people, you've also added financial incentive for them to destroy you, find you and bring you to justice.

[00:06:32] I'm looking at the Frosty's NFT and there's 2000 folks that bit into this one. And like, it kinda is.

[00:06:38] All right next on the list here of our headlines. We've got, let's see, we've got Liverpool, the soccer, they football club, Liverpool soccer, they sold 10,000 NFTs. Isn't that great, George.

[00:06:51] They sold out. They, they there's a, there's a.

[00:06:53] Oh, they were trying to sell 171,000 NFTs and they sold 10,000. So not so successful in that light. I have no idea why they would start with 171,000 as their first drop, because as you can see, 10,000 would have sold out, they would have had a success successful drop and stead.

[00:07:14] It's looking not so successful. And I can't imagine that they're going to mint out. Rest of the 161,000 of those. Anytime soon I could be wrong could have changed by the time you're hearing this. However, I doubt it.

[00:07:27] Yeah. Fans were not happy accusing the club of trying to exploit them. It did seem like a lot of the money or a portion of the sales were definitely going to their LFC foundation.

[00:07:38] But again, it's, it's very clear when you, when you push it too soon or you don't. Your base in the right way. They see it as a, as a cash grab instead of a, a stake, a stake in something that connects them with the, the team and the brand there's ways to do it. It's a waste to not do it, but I mean, that's an aggressive start, your first drop.

[00:07:59] I think we can push 171,000 in these things, the market size of people that like Liverpool's about a couple. Yeah. I feel like somebody did. Forgot to carry the one in the total addressable market game.

[00:08:13] Yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't look good now for moving forward with that project or any other projects when you've got that on on the blockchain.

[00:08:22] Yeah. And I'd like to see that it makes me sad too. Cause again, I am long soccer this year. That's right.

[00:08:28] Yes. I have

[00:08:29] not brought that up at

[00:08:30] three episodes. The recurring theme George has moved on from, from these stable games to re reminding us of soccer games, soccer, NFTs,

[00:08:40] soccer entities. Past project news.

[00:08:43] I was very excited because the red village, the other week, I forgot to mention this, but the red village launched tournaments, you can now play with those figures, the red village being a project that we have had, and we are both a full-disclosure owners of these little champions who then go beat each other up in the ring.

[00:09:01] I'm just happy to see a team finally get to launch. And I see this again and again, where there is a game launch date set and it just, you know what? Surprise games are. Hard games on blockchain are also really hard because we're also saying there are financial implications of them, but they have launched.

[00:09:20] I have actually fought with some of my some of my champions. We haven't had any big wins yet, but I am not deterred. And it gets me excited gets me excited for that project, but also puts in the back of my mind when you see a date, just add three months and then consider what that does to the assets.

[00:09:38] Yeah, I think that's a good point. The game development we're seeing is a much more timely production than, than most of the projects predict. And whether whether it's red village or cool cats or any of these games nifty legions we're seeing that these take a lot longer than anticipated and.

[00:09:58] Crypto unicorns. Eluvia like, there's tons of these things I'm watching. I'm on human park. There's like a little bit of a delay. Another one I'm watching is the crypto bots. Obviously we're both folders. There are, I'm a holder there and there's delays like it's it it's it's part it's.

[00:10:16] Yeah. And unfortunately I, it doesn't seem like any, like, there's a, like there are many teams taking the, the step or the approach of, let's not say anything and then just deliver the game.

[00:10:28] Th th we haven't, I guess the people that have been doing the most of not saying anything and delivering something is The yoga, the yoga team, but we haven't seen a game from them at this point. And I don't think that they would be one to say, it's going to come on made first and then fail to deliver on that.

[00:10:45] That's something they have gotten, right? They haven't set dates, set expectations, and then missed on those. And we are seeing a lot of teams do that. And that's, that's tough to keep people interested in. Happens a lot, even if you end up delivering later on,

[00:10:59] I don't envy the marketing teams and the marketing planning going into this.

[00:11:03] You have X number of marketing dollars say to spend, and you have got a sort of range of time. So the question is, when do we start? All right, we should start now in anticipation of this window or this range of a game being launched. And suddenly you, if you've blown through a lot of your marketing mechanism, pulling people in, you've gotten people really excited and expectation, and then you're dealing with this trough of production.

[00:11:26] Where the real data production then just eats into all of that momentum. And so when you don't get those Dominos aligned and it happens a lot, a lot, a lot it's, it's tough, but also I, I view it sometimes as like a, a test, your conviction and buy-in then so even if you sort of miss the mint and a lot of these games there's another project had been watching traverse actually, which is similar.

[00:11:49] Like I was I almost like eight, 10 to the initial drop. I realized they didn't plan a game until Q3 launch. And I was like, tell you what I'm going to check in on you this summer, see how you're

[00:11:59] doing. And I think that's a important aspect. With these games, if you are interested, there's probably going to be a lull where there's going to be a good opportunity to buy because.

[00:12:10] Unless it's a completely bucking the trend. There's going to be a delay in the delivery of the actual game. And we haven't seen any any team not take that route at this point. It's hard to not do the mint when you see the opportunity to go. Get the money to do the development for the game.

[00:12:27] And it's, it's tough to deliver a game. So that's the order we're seeing it happen. And for the most part, but it doesn't mean that mid price is often I dunno, not the floor in the at least medium term.

[00:12:40] Yeah. All right. Let's talk about our theme, trickle down economics, which is just a sort of joke at the the ape economy.

[00:12:49] We all now live in, in the NFT land where 25% of all of the area based, I guess activity, roughly speaking is under the good old UGA labs with a board, a yacht club and punks and me bits and and all of the projects under there. But. Think about it though, when someone is buying in what's what's the floor at, for board apes right now,

[00:13:10] like close to a hundred.

[00:13:13] Oh, I believe it's over a hundred right now. Thank God, 15 or so it's some, some absurd number over 300,000. Yeah.

[00:13:22] So when that amount of money is sort of in volume and floating around, just in that ecosystem, it has a sort of a gravity to it and it pulls money into its own orbit and the hope. This is maybe what we're starting to see is that as people begin to take profits and diversify, so for example, maybe you're holding a few of these assets worth hundreds of years.

[00:13:45] Maybe you take a beat and say, you know what? I can't help, but notice a lot of these apps are being targeted for hacking attempts or who knows what's coming, take the profit and roll it back into other long tail projects. The next sort of round of. Of board apes, right? I mean, the truth is if you own a board ape, it'd be one of the best investments in recent history.

[00:14:06] Had you found it at the beginning because of the multiple, when you have multiples like that? I think there is some narrative that saying like, all right, let me like take the profit and maybe look for that next round, because clearly I was smart enough to find it once and it had an absurd model.

[00:14:23] Yeah. I mean, there definitely are people rotating out of these. We've seen we've seen some other big name projects shoot up in price. Pretty significantly lately. Zuki is one that comes to mind the price, the floor price there got as high as 30 at one point, I think it's down, back down to 20 some odd at that point, but there's a lot of projects now that have really.

[00:14:46] The uh, is over 20. And I think that is it's it's some people coming in, but I think it's more often people rotating out of some of these, these really big projects and maybe it's selling out of them, but I think it's, it's often people may be diversifying if they have multiple apes, if they we're, we're fortunate to buy those at the right time it's certainly certainly worth selling it at a certain point or at this point, and maybe looking at some other projects and I think the F the first place to look when, when you're selling those, isn't looking at the tiny projects there it's, it's pretty significant.

[00:15:20] It's a significant amount of youth. And I don't think that most people want to go and buy a lot of things under maybe half an and it, after selling a 110 each piece, so there's still a lot of people willing to buy. These other pieces that 5, 10, 20 Eve because they can, that's still diversifying quite a bit from, from holding it all in one single piece.

[00:15:43] So know, I think we're seeing a lot of people rotate into those trickle down to these other projects. And you we'll see how much of that continues. Like I said recently we saw the, the highest number of sales in a single day. So I think that is telling that maybe there's more going on than, than just.

[00:16:03] Projects we're seeing those four prices rise, but I think we're starting to see volume kind of trickle down to other projects. And it's, it's, it's kind of easy to assume that that the same thing will happen from these, these other projects where a 25 eats sale is all of a sudden split into smaller projects.

[00:16:21] And so.

[00:16:22] Yeah, you see this sort of the next tier. So you move from the shopping at the top the top 10 to the next 10, and then you get in the land of like you have your MF offers and Adidas, a world of women galaxy. I think you own one of those.

[00:16:38] Yeah. Th that was the one that just dropped.

[00:16:41] So that was their second part of their drops. So yeah, that's when the worlds of women, I think that's gone, I believe that's well over 10 at this point. And I think seeing people kind of connect to some of these stronger brands that have continued to deliver and I think that's what we're seeing with the world of women with with Zuki.

[00:17:00] And I think they, I can't remember the name of the the airdrop that they just did, that, that grows to a. I don't know, over five Ethan value. So in an associates needs associated projects, I think people are looking at someone as the, the mutant ape version of the the board apes looking for projects that are connected to the, the big brands that are delivering and realizing that it's these teams aren't just limited to one single project.

[00:17:24] If they are able to deliver they're going through. It's a community. So we'll continue to grow and add value and not actually dilute over time.

[00:17:32] Yeah. I mean, You're saying that the trickle down is really just looking at that next tier. And you think that when people are flipping the larger projects, they're still looking for that type of historic significance, but also executing team, cause there are overlooked projects. I happen to own a lot of them. Cause it's my narrative thesis aside from games that involve horses and. Soccer this year, but it's about the, sort of like the moon caps, moon cats in crypto bots that just like, I'm like, they have historic significance to sit in there, but they're

[00:18:07] sitting, that's a good question.

[00:18:09] Does seem like historic significance if it's not held much value. At least in this rotation of projects it's, it's been going to to newer projects. Like Zuki, like Ms. Firs and a lot of practices have been

[00:18:24] like,

[00:18:24] yeah. Like 10 that that has continued to have to move up where I think that's up in the high freeze now as a floor and.

[00:18:31] But a, I I think, I think part of this is we're seeing teams learn from the other ones we're seeing from ones that have failed in the past, but we're not seeing much value attributed to historic projects. And there could be a couple of reasons for that. One is if they haven't had much success in, in marketing their project for a long time it's hard to imagine that.

[00:18:54] It will all of a sudden start clicking. And they obviously would, would have a challenge with a relatively inactive hold their base. It's people that aren't there's not a lot going on in these projects, so it's tough to kind of light a fire. So we're seeing these active teams that come in and there's a lot of excitement and they can ride the momentum and continue to deliver value.

[00:19:19] Those are working right now. We've talked about how that, that can you can run out of momentum. But at this point, I think that the teams that are there behind the projects. Where these profits are being rolled into where or trickled down to have largely delivered in their teams.

[00:19:38] They aren't individuals, they aren't maybe projects that just were happened to come by and mint on the blockchain. They're pretty well thought out. And they've learned a lot from the projects that came before them. And so it's hard to see that these will that are just rotate on from these two other projects that maybe are overlooked.

[00:19:57] Yeah. And I, I think the problem is we're looking at the irrationality of this week in NFTs, as opposed to this decade and what I mean by that there was a an interesting thought from milk road last week, and then. Articles saying that only about 1.4 million users have boughten in a Tiana open sea, which means 99% of the internet has not bought an NFT.

[00:20:19] They posit that what percent of internet users, people that are savvy, regular interacting on the good old interwebs will buy some kind of NFT in the next 10, 15 years more that's the answer. And there is a report. The, like we stopped, we stopped with the hypobaric, but the Coinbase NFD platform has 3.7 million users on the waiting list.

[00:20:45] I'm going to just put that in context again, real quick. 1.4 million users have bought an NFT on open seat. There are 3.7 million users on the Coinbase waiting list for the NFT market. There.

[00:20:57] That's that's a big number. That's a significant number. And I think there, you can make an argument that anything that's already there can hold significant hold historical significance to, to a new user.

[00:21:08] And the, the difference between a project that came in 2017 with it hasn't and, and in 2021, or may not be. As big as we think it is in terms of the significance. And there's a big difference, I guess, in, in the approach that the teams have taken. And certainly the momentum that a 2021 project could have versus a 2017 project.

[00:21:35] And at this point, the strongest early project is crypto punks. And we've seen that, that. That has struggled. Certainly that the historic value narrative there has, has failed to keep up with, with board apes and it's not even close. So we're seeing that in other projects as well.

[00:21:53] And I think that's something that we didn't seem. Crypto currencies when we've got these layer ones that come along and, and maybe steal some of the, the shine from a theorem for a time, for a short time, at least but then it does come back to with your hands. So it's tough to say what is going to play out over time and NFTs.

[00:22:11] But I do think that we have, you have to be a little bit wary of assigning value, just due to historic significance. As we're seeing that doesn't with most of the, the, at least the. Profits, it doesn't, it seems to be rotated into newer projects that maybe are more influenced by board apes than by crypto punks.

[00:22:30] Yeah. At a certain point too. It's you're sort of testing your, your, your thesis and I, the immediate project that comes back to I come back to like moon cats and they continue to press forward. Right. They're still pushing stuff out there. And. Their, their team is certainly docs and known they were at it.

[00:22:49] And since 2017, we talked about it as an affordable project. It had a this sort of perk up and down and it's it's a little bit down right now. I'm like do you double down on your thesis or do you like start shopping for something new? And that's kind of like a tough call.

[00:23:05] What do you think?

[00:23:05] And there's been some. Some more active discussion in the discord there. There's been some some maybe unhappiness among some of the discord members there, but it's not just in that project. It's eat moon. Cats are sinking. Cool cats. There's people grumbling about the a lot about the, the price, a lack of action.

[00:23:24] Both of these have both those projects have talked about games that have yet to be released. Moon cats has been upfront that it's going to be a very long time until the game. Is actually released. Cool cats. On the other hand was supposed to release the game, I believe in January. And it's still not.

[00:23:41] I think, I think they have it in testing.

[00:23:43] That's the, that's the production trough. It's like you get it. I really think you do a moon cast. I was like, look, we're trying, but it's.

[00:23:50] Cool. Yeah. And moon kids has also admitted they're not great at the marketing side of things. And that's been a challenge for them over the years.

[00:23:58] And that is a concern at a certain point the marketing is necessary and you can't just expect people to do see the significance of this historic The historic importance. If if people aren't paying attention that historic importance, isn't going to demean a whole lot, especially if another game is doing it much better I'm not saying that it doesn't hold value.

[00:24:19] I just, I get wary when I see teams kind of delaying things and people getting wary in Cuba, getting concerned about the lack of delivery. Yeah. What, what is to keep the bill around there? I guess it's is it just their

[00:24:34] certificates? Here's a, here's a brutal, what if for you, because you're a bit of a whale out there and you have owned a crypto punk at one point.

[00:24:43] And me that's as well. Here's here's the trade off. You can technically buy, let's call it 10 moon casts right now. Or you can buy one MF, right. And MFR is in the teens right now for a top price. Maybe it gets some trickle down love. Maybe it's like the next one to go from like definitely hyping to like absurd hype.

[00:25:02] Or do you say like no, no, no place in like a attendant cat bed.

[00:25:06] Yeah. That's a, that's an interesting one. So what would you do? Yeah, I'm, I'm thinking, I think.

[00:25:12] Yeah. He filled me in a tough position here. I think, you know that, I think at this point it'd be tough to at the end of the day, it's a little tough to buy right now at that phrase. I think it may be a little high up close to four, so, oh man, I guess I would take the boom cats. You're making me say that.

[00:25:31] Yeah, no, it's right about, so the floor price from him is 0.38 and the MFS is yeah. 3.3.

[00:25:38] Okay. Those have, does it come down again to three, three, those keep bouncing around I couldn't see. Going higher. I don't know that. I see that as being, I dunno, a project that gets to some sort of 10th floor though.

[00:25:51] Yeah. I mean that's so you just nailed it, right? Like what's more likely to happen. Moon cats get to call it one ear or like 1.2 eats or an effort to get to 10,

[00:26:03] I think it's more likely that moon cats. That.

[00:26:06] And so I think it could be, you gotta be patient. But I feel

[00:26:10] so much cooler because I already have a Mooncup it's just much cooler with the M effort, but you really, I think it's important to run that thought experiment because you can get blinded by the, like the, the forget around opportunity costs.

[00:26:21] Like there's a lot of, there's a lot of NFTs, Andrew. I don't know if you realize that.

[00:26:24] Yeah. That's two out there. Huh? Several. Are they making more?

[00:26:28] Thanks for humoring, my wife. All right. I think we nailed this. I think we nailed this topic. I'm no smarter than I was before, but I might be, I might be looking if moon cats drop below a certain amount, I may go get some.

[00:26:40] All right. Well, good talking. And if you're listening, leave us a review, give us a five stars or, or come let us know in the discord why you want to do so before you leave a rating.

[00:26:51] Yeah. If you're not going to leave us a good review, don't stop listening.

[00:26:54] You should stop. I think we're going to kick off the show with asking for a rating next time, because 'cause, I think nobody's

[00:27:00] listening. All right. I'm going to go rate us. I'm gonna go on by Andrea.